Tactics for Office Tenant Retention with David Neil of The Durst Organization| Insights from Season 1

Speaker 1 (00:00)
Having that tenant actually increased, uh, the rents, uh, throughout the building. There was sort of a, a pre post, sort of global relay effect in, in the building. So having, you know, that that type of tenancy in the building wound up attracting other types of tenants to the building, and we're willing to, uh, pay up to be in that great building.

Speaker 2 (00:19) This week we're talking about how you can create an office experience that makes your tenants want to come back to the office and stay there. Welcome back to another episode of In The Loop. Today we're joined by David Neil of the Durst Organization. David is a principal at Durst overseeing commercial leasing, marketing, communications, film production space, and even the Employee Innovation Program. Welcome, David.

Speaker 3 (00:45) Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 (00:46) David, you have led an incredibly established career, so I won't steal your thunder. If you could introduce yourself and just tell us a little bit about what brought you to the world of commercial real estate.

Speaker 1 (00:56) Well, once again, thanks for for having me. Um, uh, I, I, I, I appreciate, uh, the compliment on, uh, the career. Uh, I still got a lot more energy and juice to go, so I hope, hope there's a long road ahead of me. But, uh, commercial real estate, uh, has always been, uh, uh, an area of interest, uh, of mine. Um, uh, the family has been in, in the business for, you know, over a hundred years. Uh, my wife's, uh, grandfather, her great-grandfather, uh, initially started the business, and her, her, her grandfather ran it. Now, you know, third generations, uh, running the company with, uh, with Uncle Douglas and, uh, and cousin Jody. So, family, family aside, I've always been interested in, in real estate. I've also also been very interested in sustainability issues and, uh, uh, environmental stewardship. Uh, so being at the Durst organization where the two are so interconnected, um, has been a real treat.

Speaker 2 (01:55) Wow, that's wonderful. What a cool start to it, too. Um, can you tell us a little bit about what you do with Durst and your role there?

Speaker 1 (02:04) Sure. Uh, over the 17 years, uh, I've been with the company. I've had, you know, various roles, uh, from property management, uh, into the legal department to amenities. Uh, went to one of our affiliate companies, uh, ran the, the affiliate company for, for a bunch of years. Uh, we had a maritime business, uh, which I was heavily involved in and wound up, uh, selling actually, uh, about 10, 10 years or so ago. Uh, and then more, more recently, I'd been, uh, focused on, uh, commercial leasing, uh, marketing and, uh, communications and, and a few other, uh, initiatives as well.

Speaker 2 (02:37) Very cool. Um, I know one of the ones I saw was the Employee innovation program. That was something that you had kind of presented and led and initiated there. Can you tell us a bit about what that looks like and what you were, what that accomplishes?

Speaker 1 (02:53) Yeah. Happy to do so. So, yeah. The innovation program, uh, is now in its, uh, 15th, uh, year. Wow. Uh, a program, uh, that I started, uh, since, uh, you know, we, innovation is, is one of our core values, and so, uh, really important to, uh, to, to really nurture and support sort of this culture of, of innovation. And so the idea behind, uh, the program was to, uh, to get our employees, our corporate and our, our, our union employees to share, uh, their ideas, their suggestions, to, to improve, uh, operations, uh, to, to, to, to, to create better customer experiences. Um, and it's been a phenomenal program. Uh, this past year we had, you know, 64, uh, innovation, uh, submissions, uh, and, uh, a number of, uh, of winners, uh, at the end of the year. Uh, so it's, uh, a program I'm very proud of and look forward to, uh, to seeing where the program goes, uh, in the future.

Speaker 2 (03:48)Wow. Yeah. That's fantastic. Um, I was reading, I saw one of the cool things that Durst does is put beehives at the top of high rises, and then you have Durst branded Honey. Was that a product of the Employee Innovation program?

Speaker 1 (04:04)Uh, yes, actually that was, that's cool. What was an initiative, uh, that, uh, was recognized? Uh, so we, uh, uh, a number of years ago, uh, we started to convert, um, uh, setbacks rooftops, uh, into green roofs. After we did the green roofs and sort of evolved, uh, into terraces and a few other things, it then opened up this, this opportunity to put, uh, these beehives, um, you know, uh, on, uh, some of our, uh, some of our setbacks. There's a, a few things that were really neat about, uh, that innovation. One was, uh, the, the, the green roofs, uh, that, that, um, that we have in our portfolio. Um, we actually, you know, uh, compost, uh, throughout our portfolio. I've probably one of the only, one of the only, if not the only, um, you know, commercial landlord that offers composting throughout our portfolio. (04:54) And so we, uh, we, we collect the organic waste and we send, um, you know, a portion of a, a portion of the, the waste actually goes to, to, to an affiliate of ours and an organic farm upstate, and then comes back as compost onto our green roof, sort of this nice sort of full loop, uh, system. Uh, anyway, so we had these green roofs, and then someone came up with this idea to put these beehives. Uh, and, you know, that's been a real hit. Uh, we make our own honey, uh, which, uh, which we then include in our amenity spaces, including here, a 25 on the 12th floor. Uh, we give jars of honey out to, to our tenants, um, as, as thank yous for being in our, in our portfolio. Uh, so yeah, it's, it's been, that's been a fun, a fun project.

Speaker 2 (05:37)That is really cool. We were talking about some of those outdoor spaces, the setbacks and how you've transformed them. Um, I know you've got a really cool one over at 1155 Avenues of America. Can you tell us how you all decide which spaces and how to have the most impact within those setbacks and unused rooftops?

Speaker 1 (05:57)I love talking about outdoor space, uh, for a bunch of reasons. So, one is, I, I'm a big believer in value creation. Uh, value creation I think is a really important part of, of what we do. It's one of the reasons I'm so excited to be, you know, in commercial real estate. And you know, why I'm so excited to come to the office every day. It's about how do we create value for, for our customers, uh, and for, uh, this great city of, of, of New York. And so, uh, the, the, the terraces, uh, was an idea that we had about, I'd say about 12, 13 years ago. So we're very early at the time. Very few, uh, tenants were interested in, in outdoor space. Uh, when I started to ask questions to consultants, to folks internally, even, uh, there was a lot of hesitation, you know, oh, insurance, legal risk, you know, it was, there was, you know, terraces aren't what they are today. (06:47) Today, you know, terrace is, it's, uh, sort of become, uh, sort of almost a norm, right? It's almost an expectation. Mm-hmm . For, uh, for, for a lot of, uh, tenants who want to be in a class a, uh, property. Uh, but at the time that was, that was not the case. And so it was, uh, one of these, uh, instances where, uh, we were actually creating the demand. We were actually, uh, anticipating where the market could go. And so at the time, there was a, it was actually a negative to be near a setback or near a rooftop. You'd be looking at, at a blacktop, you'd be looking at, um, you know, outdoor space that, um, actually decreased the value of the real estate, the adjacent, uh, you know, office space. And so we turned, um, and then a lot of others have also done this, turned what was a negative into a positive now, uh, being, having access to outdoor space, or even being in close proximity to a green roof, uh, increases the value, uh, and the experience, uh, certainly of, of having office space that's adjacent to, or having access to the outdoors, uh, since 2000, I'd say 2012, 2013, uh, we have converted about 30 or so setbacks, 30 or so rooftops, uh, into, into terraces at 1155 Avenue of Americas, which you mentioned. (08:06) Uh, we spent about $20 million, uh, on a speculative basis to create this phenomenal indoor outdoor experience, uh, which, uh, then led to us, uh, securing a, an outstanding tenant global relay. Uh, that tenant, uh, fell in love with the space. And what was really interesting, uh, after, uh, we went through that exercise, we actually, uh, found that, uh, there was, you know, having that tenant actually increased, uh, the rents, uh, throughout the building. There was sort of a, a pre post, sort of global relay effect in, in the building. So having, you know, that that type of tendency in the building, uh, wound up attracting other types of, uh, you know, uh, uh, tenants to the building, and were willing to, uh, pay up to be in that great building. But, uh, that was, uh, a significant investment. We made other, other buildings, uh, similarly, 1, 5, 1, uh, also 1 5, 1, um, on the West side Midtown, uh, we spent about $8 million on a speculative basis to put in wind screens and structural reinforcement, uh, for, for setbacks. And that, uh, that turned out to be very timely led to, uh, a number of, uh, a number of, uh, transactions over the last few years. Actually, about half, over half of that building at 1 5, 1, it's a 1.8 million square foot asset. Over half of that building is associated with, uh, with outdoor space.

Speaker 2 (09:30) That is, that's incredible. And it's, it's interesting to see Durst really help set the standard for what is important to the tenant experience today. Um, which is pretty incredible when you're kind of weighing out what amenities and design elements are going to have the biggest impact on the tenant experience, on tenant engagement, what are some things that you look at?

Speaker 1 (09:57)So I think, uh, exactly what you, what you said is, is the most important, uh, the, the tenant experience. So, uh, what, what has changed, uh, over the, over the years is yeah, expectations. So I liken it to, uh, going to a very nice

restaurant. Mm-hmm . I, I, I assume you, you enjoy going to a nice restaurant from time

Speaker 2 (10:17)To time. I do. Yeah. You got me there. Who doesn't ,

Speaker 1 (10:20)Right? Who doesn't, we all do. Exactly. So when you go to a, (10:22) When you go to a really nice restaurant, uh, yeah, the food has to be great, but that's not the only piece, right? Mm-hmm . The, the, the music has, if there's background music, it's gotta be the right type of music. Uh, the design of the space, the atmosphere, the service, the hospitality, touch, all the elements that go into your evening out at a very nice restaurant, uh, all matter, the details really matter. So you can go to a restaurant and the food could be some of the best food you ever have, but if the service is, is not right, it takes forever to get your check, and you're stuck and you want to get out of there, uh, or you go to the restrooms and they're really dirty and gross, uh, you're not gonna wanna go back, you know, you know. So it's, it's, it's looking at the experience holistically, all the details, uh, added, when added up together is what creates that differentiator, you know, that's what creates, um, either great experience or, or subpar experience. (11:13) So it's no longer the case where, uh, a, a tenant will say, I just want to go to a, a beautiful building, you know, a building that is designed in, in a nice way or a space that, uh, you know, is designed, uh, with great aesthetic. That's part of it, of course, but that's just, that's just one component. What's, what's incredibly, um, uh, uh, I think, uh, I would say what's most important now is focusing on, uh, on the overall experience of, of the tenant. And that's from beginning to end. Um, I think back to, uh, sort of the 1990s, uh, I think back to that, uh, that movie, uh, was an office space

Speaker 4 (11:55) Mm-hmm

Speaker 1 (11:55) . Where the experience of the customer was, uh, more of a, an afterthought. And then there was this sort of shift over time, um, into the two thousands more of this densification, a so-called densification, which was this idea to sort of pack as many people into, uh, space as possible, right? So it's sort of this, in my view, sort of Pennywise pound foolish, it was this, uh, real estate as an expense. How can we pack people in, um, to save a couple of dollars in our real estate expense? And then, uh, actually coming out of COVID, something very interesting happened, uh, and that was this, this question of why, uh, do we even need office space? You know, why, why have office space? Uh, and, and some people went down, uh, down this road, um, and, uh, were very negative and, and, and saying, well, uh, uh, why even go into the office? And then something really interesting happened, uh, when, when you get to the essence of why have an office space, um, there was a, um, a realization that in-person collaboration, having an office actually really matters.

Speaker 4 (13:00) Mm-hmm

Speaker 1 (13:01) . Um, lots of studies have come out to, to, to show this, uh, whether it's for productivity, whether it's for innovation, uh, whether it's for team cohesion, whether it's for young, uh, younger folks coming into the workforce who need mentorship, right? There's a whole host of studies that show the importance of being in person. But what, what this did is it, it focused, I think all of us in the industry, and certainly our customers, our tenants, the people who wanna be, uh, in, in person, the people, the, the, the companies who, who, who now believe, uh, in the importance of having an office or, uh, who are reminded now how important having in-person collaboration is. Most of those, uh, folks, um, want to be in a, in a building where they're having a, a phenomenal experience, right? This is the so-called flight to quality, the, again, jargon that we hear throughout, uh, the industry.

Speaker 4 (13:55) Yeah.

Speaker 1 (13:56) Um, but all that means is being in a, in, in a better environment. It means being, uh, in an environment where the customer experience is front and center.

Speaker 2 (14:06) Yep. It's, it's very interesting you say that because we see, um, like you said, the evolving tenant expectations happening here. And so we're shifting how we create and use office space in our place of work. And so how does Durst then prioritize what amenities or upgrades are needed to have the largest impact on the tenant experience?

Speaker 1 (14:32) So, a amenities are, uh, again, uh, a very important part of the equation, but it's just a part mm-hmm

Speaker 4 (14:38) .

Speaker 1 (14:39) Uh, and so let's, let's, let's come back to amenities in a moment. So, when I think of, uh, the customer experience, I think of everything from, uh, the, the type of retail, uh, that have in our buildings. We're not just chasing, uh, a top, uh, a top dollar from a, a retail, uh, from a retailer. We're looking for a retailer that who's gonna enhance the neighborhood, who's gonna enhance, uh, the experience of our, of our office users. So, by way of example, here at 8 25, uh, third Avenue, uh, a property, we spent $150 million to, uh, to reposition, uh, the building, uh, was at a triple net lease for, for several decades. We got the building back, we decided to spend $150 million to renovate the building. So this was a great case study of what to do with a blank slate. So as part of, uh, part of the process, we prioritize making sure we have great retail, uh, here at the base of the building, uh, to help attract, you know, the right type of office users. (15:41) So we have this phenomenal restaurant at the base. We have a physical therapist at, at the base, um, and some other, uh, uh, nearby, uh, restaurants that are very complimentary to sort of the experience. Um, of course, the design of the building, um, you know, that really matters how we operate, uh, the building operational excellence. Mm-hmm . Really, I important. Um, so wait times for an elevator, right? We wanna make sure you, you come into a building again. Um, if, if you're, if you're coming into a building that looks great, but you have to wait forever to get an elevator, that's not a great experience. Mm-hmm . So, uh, we, we make sure we're, we're putting a lot of, uh, attention on the back of house to make sure that you have a seamless and, and, uh, a seamless experience when you're in the building. Um, this building, uh, we also, were very innovative here at 8 25. We invested in, uh, view glass technology. Uh, I think we're one of the first, uh, buildings, uh, to do that, uh, wow. Certainly here in New York City.

Speaker 2 (16:40) Yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:41) Um, and that's what's neat about, you know, this particular innovation is, uh, there are no blinds, uh, you in, in this building. Um, so the, the technology, uh, has, uh, tints, um, based on, there's, there's, uh, artificial intelligence baked into the technology and the, and, and the, the, the windows tint based on how much sun is coming in. There is a, uh, an override if, if, if you would like, uh, to tint it, uh, either darker or lighter. But what that does is enables, uh, some of our, uh, some of our customers who, uh, some of our tenants who, who, uh, you know, pay a premium for a phenomenal view, uh, they want to be able to enjoy the view. And so, in this building, you know, we went above and beyond to create a situation where a tenant can come into the building and enjoy the view 365 days, not have a situation where, uh, you're paying for the view, but you can't enjoy the view. (17:38) 'cause you have to have the blinds down in order to be on, say, uh, uh, a Zoom or a WebEx or, or, you know, whatever tech, whatever we're on right now, . But yeah. Uh, all of those details matter. And then certainly amenity space, um, you know, is also a, a consideration here at 8 25, a very important part of the mix. The entire 12th floor, uh, we converted, uh, into, uh, an amenity space for, uh, for, for the, the tenants of, of the building very well received. It's an indoor outdoor for us. Uh, this was the first time we, uh, included, uh, a terrace. Mm-hmm . It's about a 4,000 square foot terrace Wow. Wraparound terrace for our, our tenants to, to enjoy. Uh, and it's been a, it's been very well received. Uh, so there's a, a cafe. There's, uh, conference rooms, um, meeting space, uh, lounge area, uh, and, and this outdoor opportunities,

Speaker 2 (18:35) We got to experience two of those. Well, and by Durst locations, one world trade, like you mentioned, and then the cool space behind you over at 8, 2 5 third, um, incredible views, beautiful designs and aesthetics. Um, can you tell us a little bit about what inspired this concept of Well, in by Durst?

Speaker 1 (18:56) So, a, a number of us, about 15 or so years ago, uh, had the opportunity to tour, uh, the campuses of some of, you know, very large, uh, companies, um, who at the time were really at the forefront of creating, um, sort of amenity spaces within their campuses, within their buildings. Um, you know, that provided, uh, an inspiration, uh, because we came to the realization that not all companies, uh, have the ability or the desire, uh, to create, uh, these types of amenity spaces within their space.

Speaker 4 (19:30) Mm-hmm .

Speaker 1 (19:31) And so that was the inspiration for us to, to, uh, launch the Well End by Durst brand. So how we design the space, how we operate the space, um, sustainability sort of woven throughout. But one of my colleagues, uh, you know, took this picture of, of this green wall. Uh, it was about 2000 live plants on this, on this green wall. Um, at 1 5, 1 took a picture, sent it to, uh, to a broker and said, guess where I am? And the broker said, Google . Uh, and so we took that as a compliment.

Speaker 2 (20:06) Yes.

Speaker 1 (20:07) Um, and, uh, but that was the inspiration. And so we, we, uh, looked to that and said, we should, we should do something similar, uh, at several of our properties that then, uh, uh, one World Trade Center and, and 8 25, uh, we sort of lessons learned across our portfolio. Um, and here we are.

Speaker 2 (20:26) Uh, when we were at one World Trade Center, it was pretty easy to get there. Um, the subway station was right underneath. Um, and you guys also have Grand Central East that you're bringing on. And even where you're at now at 8, 2 5, third being very close to transit, can you talk about how that's become a bit more important to, uh, tenants today?

Speaker 1 (20:45) Yeah. Incredibly important. Um, tenants are, are focusing on a great, uh, customer experience. And that actually starts before the employee even gets to the building. Yeah. So the, the journey from home to to office, uh, very, very important. So, uh, proximity to, uh, transit options, uh, increasingly important. One of the reasons we actually went through a rebranding exercise at, uh, two of our buildings, uh, that you, uh, just mentioned, um, on the East Side, Midtown East, we just rebranded, uh, what was 6 55 Third Avenues, not five Grand Central East. What was 7 33, uh, uh, on Third Avenue is now 11 Grand Central East, which, uh, we hope in the coming years actually, uh, is known as a distinct neighborhood. Yep. 'cause, uh, I certainly am of the opinion, just like Bryan Park, um, you know, so important, the Bryant Park, uh, submarket that, that, that area around Bryant Park over the last handful of years has become sort of a distinct, uh, submarket. (21:51) I think the same thing, uh, will happen with Grand Central East. The proximity to Grand Central, uh, really important, more tenants are, are looking for that proximity. The investment that, uh, took place recently at Grand Central, connecting Long Island Railroad to, um, uh, to Grand Central has been, uh, incredibly important one World Trade Center. Yes. Uh, I, I think that's, you know, uh, connected to every subway line or almost every subway line in, in, in New York. Um, and our buildings, uh, in Midtown on the west side, uh, uh, as well, uh, uh, connected to, um, you know, uh, great, uh, you know, uh, uh, uh, transit options, whether it's, uh, to Penn Station, you know, proximity, grand Central, and of course, the, the, the various subway lines. So yeah, I think that's, that's incredibly important as well, uh, moving forward, for sure.

Speaker 2 (22:44) Wow. I love it. You mentioned sustainability is super important to Durst. Um, Durst entire commercial portfolio is Lead Gold certified or higher. Um, can you share how sustainability has impacted tenant retention, um, or attracted new tenants?

Speaker 1 (23:03) We've had a number of companies who've become tenants because of our sustainability focus. It's, it's certainly, so in that regard, uh, from a leasing perspective, it's, it's, it's always nice to see some leads, uh, and leases as a result of our sustainability focus. But I would, I would say so, yes. That's, that, that's certainly important and, and worth acknowledging. But more to the point, you know, sustainability is our, in our DNA, it's, it's, it's our, it's our identity. It's who we are. I think storytelling is really important, um, important to communicate, uh, who we are, what, what our company is about. Uh, and for us, you know, this is sort of a, a very authentic way for, to express, um, something that a number of us, uh, in the family, I think all of us, uh, in the family and, and executives and employees throughout the company, something that we care about on a personal level.

Speaker 2 (23:57) It's, it's an admiral to see the values of Durst, um, and those who run it and are part of it come to life within the commercial real estate spaces that you all have in New York. Um, how do you weigh the costs of those sustainability upgrades to the financial returns for Durst

Speaker 1 (24:18) Case by case? Yeah. Uh, you know, that's a real, a case by case, um, analysis. Um, but oftentimes, uh, you know, oftentimes cost I is, is isn't the main driver.

Speaker 4 (24:30) Mm-hmm .

Speaker 1 (24:31) Oftentimes, uh, it's, it's, it's inertia. It's how business is being done. Uh, it's, it's dealing with change management, changing behavior, influencing, uh, our tenants or influencing, uh, you know, the industry to change. Just by way of example, um, I mentioned, uh, composting in our commercial portfolio. Yes. Uh, you know, that was a, a cost we just absorbed. It was not a, a substantial cost. Uh, but it was, there was a nominal cost, uh, that we absorbed, uh, you know, to do this. And initially when we launched the program, uh, guess how many, uh, office tenants, uh, decided to participate?

Speaker 2 (25:10) I would love to say hundreds, um, but I'm sure people were a little hesitant first with something so new and unique.

Speaker 1 (25:17) Zero.

Speaker 2 (25:18) Oh, no . So

Speaker 1 (25:19) We had zero, but we didn't give up.

Speaker 2 (25:21) I love it. Good. And so

Speaker 1 (25:22) We looked, we, we looked in, we looked in the mirror and say, what could we do different? Mm-hmm . How can we communicate this program? How can we do better? Right. How can we communicate the benefits of this program, um, in a different way? And so we went on a road show, myself included, uh, lots of meetings. And that led to, you know, over into the hundreds of, of, of tenants, uh, participating.

Speaker 2 (25:43) That's wonderful.

Speaker 1 (25:44) In that program. So I share that as one of many examples where, um, uh, it's, it's, yes, case by case, looking at, uh, looking at the dollars. Sometimes it, it, it, the payback just isn't there, and it doesn't make sense, or the technology just hasn't, uh, evolved. And it's not, not the right moment to, to deploy that particular technology, but oftentimes it's just rolling up the sleeves and figuring things out, um, and making it happen. So the compost is an example of that. Um, one of our, our colleagues who also is a innovation award recipient, um, last year came up with this, uh, this really clever idea to recycle, uh, glass that is on, on, on the office fronts, uh, of, um, actually most, most office fronts, uh, that have, uh, the glass, very difficult to recycle and hadn't been recycled, uh, in the industry. (26:36) And, uh, she, um, uh, she figured out a way working with, uh, some partners, uh, to do so. And, uh, that has had a big impact, uh, on us when space is, um, uh, being demolished. Now, when these glass fronts are coming down, that material is now being recycled. And, uh, thanks to that effort, um, really having a big impact, not just for us, but elsewhere in the industry where a lot of our, our colleagues, a lot of our, you know, other folks in the industry are, are, you know, now participating, uh, in that effort. So, again, another example where, yes, um, there are trade offs, uh, and sometimes, you know, there, there is an additional cost, oftentimes with, with, with a, a reasonable pay payback, sometimes not. And so we have to make, weigh those decisions. But so many times, uh, it's just, again, rolling up the sleeves and putting in the work.

Speaker 2 (27:26) Awesome. I, I think holistic is a key theme here. Um, and with, and especially with Durst, you know, taking a holistic approach to the tenant experience, like we were talking about earlier, but also to sustainability and going beyond just energy efficiency, to recycling the glass, to composting, um, to turning on used spaces into green spaces. I think that's incredibly admirable, um, and a great value to see with Durst. Is there any other really unique ways, or even maybe some advice you'd give to other landlords who are trying to have some more sustainability within their buildings and put that at the forefront of their building?

Speaker 1 (28:03) Uh, yeah. Uh, in terms of advice, uh, I, I, I would, uh, uh, recommend yes, having, uh, internal experts, having, we have a sustainability department that's, that's incredibly important, but that's not enough. Um, and so there's, there's actually a risk, uh, in forming a sustainability department in my view. Uh, if the sustainability department is viewed as the only sort of, the only, uh, employees or the only ones who are focused on sustainability, we look at, uh, we look at it very differently. So we, we do have a sustainability department, but sustainability, um, expectations around sustainability and being an ambassador, being an advocate for sustainability, is woven into the job descriptions of all of our employees. Uh, when we talk about goals, uh, sustainability is not just a goal for the sustainability department, but is, is a goal that is woven into all of our employees. So, uh, my advice would be, uh, don't compartmentalize, uh, sustainability amongst two or three, four or five people. Uh, it really has to be, again, using that word, holistic. It really has to be a holistic approach. Uh, and if you do that, uh, I, I think, uh, you know, you're, you're putting yourself in a much better position to succeed.

Speaker 2 (29:24) I love it. Um, wanna start to close this out, um, with one of our favorite questions, um, to end us on, um, which is, what is your favorite city and why?

Speaker 3 (29:38) of, I have to say, New York City. I'm here in New York.

Speaker 2 (29:43) I know, if you had said something different, I'd be worried. .

Speaker 3 (29:47) So look, New York City.

Speaker 2 (29:48) Yep. What about New York? What, what is one of the reasons, or some of the reasons that makes it your favorite city?

Speaker 1 (29:55) Yeah. So, uh, a whole bunch of reasons, but, but, uh, what I really love about, uh, New York is the people, uh, the energy, uh, the, uh, a ability to, um, to be whoever you want to be. Uh, and, uh, I, I do love the striving. I do love the, I, you know, the, uh, sort of the commitment to being the best, whatever it is, whether you're a musician, whether you're financial services, whatever it is that you do, whether you're real estate, whatever, uh, there's this sort of energy here of an expectation that, you know, you have to continuously improve and try to be the best at whatever it is that you do. I, I really love that about New York. What I also love about New York is the density also allows for, uh, these phenomenal outdoor opportunities that are just in our backyard. You, you go, you know, 15, 20, 25 miles and you're in mountains, or you're at a beach, or you're, you know, you have these, of course, beautiful parks and outdoor spaces within the city itself. Uh, but also if you're someone who loves the outdoors, like myself, you can be kayaking, you can be hiking, you can be doing all these phenomenal things, um, just outside of the city.

Speaker 2 (31:10) I love it. If you had to pick one thing to improve about New York, what might it be?

Speaker 1 (31:17) Look, everyone, every individual, every city, every, we can always do better, right? So, um, I'd have to give some more thought to the one thing. Um, I, I, I certainly think, um, we can go from good to great and great to even better. Mm-hmm . So that's certainly true here. Um, I'd have to give more thought to what the one thing is . Uh, but, uh, but I think New York City's doing a pretty good job right now.

Speaker 2 (31:42) I agree. I love it. Well, thank you, David, for being part of our podcast today and sharing your expertise. And thank you, listeners for joining us on another episode of In The Loop. We have a lot more in store for you, so stick around and thanks again, David, for joining us and sharing your time and insight. We still have much more to come with insights from season one of In The Loop. Don't forget to follow, so you won't miss an episode.