The Future of Office with Nikki Greenberg

Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hi, I am Phil Hazelhurst, and welcome back to another episode of In The Loop, a podcast series from LoopNet, where we take a look behind the scenes at the world's commercial real estate. I'm here today at 8 25 third Avenue in New York City to meet with Nikki Greenberg. Nikki is one of the world's foremost thinkers on the future of the built environment and technology. So we're gonna head inside and meet with Nikki and have a conversation about what the future holds for the world, cities and workplaces. So let's head inside and meet with her now. Hello and welcome to another episode of In The Loop. In today's episode, we are very lucky to be joined by Nikki Greenberg. Nikki is one of the world's foremost thinkers and futurists on the urban environment, workplace strategy, and the future of cities and the built environment in general. She helps top developers and global companies to anticipate what's coming next in the built environment. Her thinking and insights sit at the intersection of technology, design, and human behavior. So I'm very excited to meet with Nikki. Nikki, thank you so much for joining us today on In The Loop.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
Yeah, thank you for having me. That was a very eloquent introduction, so

Speaker 1 (01:31):
Thank you. I appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (01:32):
If you consider a career move, I think media's for you.

Speaker 1 (01:34):
. Thank you so much. That's very kind of you. I'd love to start with just a little bit of an introduction to you. How have you come to this point in your career where you are, uh, a preeminent thinker on, uh, the future of cities real estate technology? Tell me more about your journey to this point.

Speaker 2 (01:51):
I mean, look, thinking about the future is really part of the DNA of any real estate developer because we're always thinking about long-term trends when, you know, I started my career working as an architect and an urban designer in Sydney, Australia, working on mixed use master plan communities. So retail in the center and then, you know, hundreds or thousands of, you know, residences surrounding that
(02:11):
And really working at scale. And what you're having to do is, when you're working at, on that type of project, you're having to make decisions today for the needs of tomorrow. You're having to anticipate that by the time you finish designing something bolded, people start moving in, in stage one, stage two, stage three, stage four know, a decade or two decades have passed. Mm. And you've gotta make sure that it's still relevant. So it's kind of part of my DNA from, you know, from my career. I started out as an architect, urban designer working in Sydney, Australia, on mixed use projects. Um, I designed shopping centers, office buildings, residential buildings, et cetera. And when I moved to New York in 2017, that's when I was exposed to PropTech or real estate technology.

Speaker 3 (02:51):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
And when I found out, I was like, well, why aren't we talking about this as an industry? It's got so many opportunities, it can solve all of our problems, and tech is a lot faster than actually building something. Mm. So I really started digging my teeth into it and became, you know, quite well known in the New York prop tech ecosystem. And through that it really ignited my interest in future trends and technologies and what it means for our industries. So, you know, fast forward to today, I have the great honor of traveling around the world, speaking to audiences at different events and private companies, and in the boardrooms to leaders about future trends, and also advising leaders on, well, what do they need to do today to be fut ready?

Speaker 1 (03:32):
The term futurism is quite kind of grand and inspiring, and it's quite an exciting term. Tell me about, in practical terms, like what does futurism mean to you? What does futurism mean to all of us?

Speaker 2 (03:43):
Futurism really is about, well, where do you spend your time? Where, where's your mind? Are you problem solving for today? Which most of us do in our day-to-day jobs, thinking about this quarter, this, you know, this year, our next bonus, what are we having for lunch? Or do you think about what's coming up next? Mm. Are you think about the next 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years? And when you kind of start putting your head towards the future and start thinking about, okay, well these things are coming in 2030 or 2040 or 2050, then you can kind of roll back and go, okay, I know where we're going. I know where we wanna be. Now, how do I actually take actions today to make that happen?

Speaker 1 (04:18):
In a discipline like, uh, property development, construction architecture, it must be quite challenging to split your mind, uh, between the here and now, the problems of the here and now and the future. Because so much of development project is about solving kind of today's situation. So how do you work with leaders, with businesses to help them to kind of get into the right mindset about thinking about the future?

Speaker 2 (04:44):
And you are correct, you need to work in both streams because there are the realities of running a business today and today's needs, but then there's also that longer term outlook. So when I work with leaders, what I'm basically saying to them is, look, I'm not here to talk about the today. You, you know, you've got a lot of people focused on that. Let's actually map out what's coming and what that impact might be for you. And an example is, you know, flying taxis or advanced immobility

Speaker 3 (05:11):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (05:12):
And understanding in a similar analogy to the shopping center example that I gave you, going, okay, let's run this exercise of saying, we know that flying taxis are coming. Mm-hmm. You know, there's a roadmap for them to come to different states. They're being tested out. There's been a lot of flights, there's a lot of data is coming, dunno Exactly. When different goals and aims for different places in the country. So it's like, okay, let's try and understand, let's run that thought exercise to say, if we get flying taxis tomorrow, where do we wanna be? If we know that first routes are gonna be from the airports, the ccb d, how can we actually take advantage of that? What attributes do our buildings need to have? What kind of conversations do we need to start having with different, you know, vendors, suppliers, um, people? How can we actually capitalize on this and what does it mean us? And actually start engaging with that conversation. Mm-hmm. So you're being two steps ahead of your competition because your competition's going, well, actually, we're just solving for today. Right. 'cause that's what we understand, but we're not yet embracing the future because that is very unknown.

Speaker 1 (06:10):
So there's actually a competitive advantage for a business if they can orient themselves in this way of thinking more long term, more ahead into the future, not just the kind of short term future, but the more abstract like long-term future as well.

Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yeah. A thousand percent. And you see that with a lot of visionaries that can come in and create a new place mm-hmm . From, you know, from a greenfield site to a brownfield side to actually change the nature of a place. Again, it's part of our DNA, we have that skillset. And now when you start adding in, you know, futuristic technologies or future mobility, it actually creates a new, um, a new category that we can start to engage with and then sets you apart from everybody else.

Speaker 1 (06:51):
So we're here today in New York City, which is obviously a very vibrant, exciting place to be. Um, it's not a new city despite its name. So when you look back and you think about the, uh, urban planners, developers of the past, what do you wish they'd considered, uh, in, in terms of futurism when they were kind of constructing a city like this? Where did things go wrong and what, what are the consequences when you don't give enough thought to the long-term future?

Speaker 2 (07:19):
I mean, this is like the most complicated problem because I think for people that aren't in New York, they don't necessarily realize that when you're on the ground, just how chaotic and broken it is. Yes. And it's almost like despite that, yes, it is still the greatest city in the world. Yeah. Despite this kind of, you know, a de decrepit state and Japan . And, you know, I I love it. I I choose to be here. I choose to be here. Having said that, I mean, look, there's a lot, um, that I, I'll kind of sums sum it up in one way, which is so unoriginal, but it's very true is that infrastructure really is the heart of a city.

Speaker 3 (07:52):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (07:52):
And the subway system is described as the spine. You know, it is this like lifeline that, you know, really keeps the city running and it's in such a state of disrepair. Mm. And often what happens is that there's a focus on what's new. So let's build a new bridge. Let's build a new hospital, let's build a this or that because it's kind of shiny and it's like, okay, this is kind of cool, rather than investing in maintenance, repair, et cetera. So we've kind of got ourselves into a little bit of a pickle. Mm. Because we haven't done a great job at maintaining a lot of the very important systems in our city.

Speaker 3 (08:24):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (08:24):
Because it's just gone into difficult. So basically it's like, it's like a sieve where we're just pouring a lot of money and it just goes out and you don't see anything better. I'm like, okay.

Speaker 1 (08:32):
It's kind of like software development or technology where you're progressing so quickly that you figure to go back and fill in the kind of technical debt in the software. It's kind of like that with a fast growing dynamic city, you never go back and retrofit the latest technology to the stuff that you already have. Right. So, as you were saying, the transport system suffers, things like that.

Speaker 2 (08:51):
Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think another way of thinking about it is bringing it back to, you know, offers, workplace, et cetera, is that even if we think about a business as an ecosystem or an organism, sometimes what's happens is, you know, you start small or you started maybe back in the 1950s or 1920s and you start adding things and adding things, and adding things and adding things.

Speaker 3 (09:14):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (09:15):
And then you look back, you know, a hundred years or 50 years later, where we are today, you kind of go, well, does this make sense for where we are today? Right, right. Or do we need to kind of draw a line in the sand and reassess and say, we're in a different time. Mm. And we need better and more robust systems that work for us. If I can draw an analogy,

Speaker 1 (09:32):
You are known for making bold predictions about the future of cities and the future of the workplace. So what do you see as the, uh, shifts that are coming in the future that people are not giving enough consideration to today?

Speaker 2 (09:48):
I think the main thing that I'm seeing is that we keep applying old formulas to today's context.

Speaker 1 (09:55):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (09:55):
And it's not always relevant. And the reason that we do that is because we understand that.

Speaker 1 (10:01):
Right. You

Speaker 2 (10:01):
Know, we understand the past, we've been there, we've seen if it works or if it doesn't. And the challenge is that we haven't been in the future unless, I don't know you're taking LSD or something, , , you know, that's not the way I work, . That's, you know, that's, that's not my way. So you're trying to like design for the future, create something for the future, but you actually don't know what's coming. Mm-hmm. So it gives us a bit of a conundrum.

Speaker 3 (10:23):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (10:23):
So if we wanna be able to create an environment for the future, we gotta basically take that step to understand, okay, as I said, play these thoughts, these thought exercises to hypothetically think what might happen, or, um, actually lean into the changes themselves and test it out. So spatial computing is a great example. You know, I've got my meta glasses, they're kind of the dumb version. 'cause we don't yet have the augmented reality coming through. But when we actually do get into a context, which is coming very soon, in which we can use augmented reality on a headset or glasses to actually see our screens and see our work, well, that's gonna change the whole office. Mm. But you've gotta start with actually like, testing out the technology, becoming a super user, trying it out. And then you'll learn, you know, you'll get inspired and you'll understand it better.

Speaker 1 (11:14):
And so it sounds like part of the, uh, formula here is a kind of a, an open-mindedness or a mindset where you're prepared to break old patterns, rethink the old playbook, and, uh, be prepared to just try new things and approach things in a different way.

Speaker 2 (11:32):
Yeah. A thousand percent. And I've actually, I'm working on a book at the moment, which is exactly about this theme. And it's got almost like this step ladder of these different, you know, five different things that you need to do when you think about the workplace of tomorrow. Mm. And the hardest step, which is step four, is I kind of call like, do different.

Speaker 1 (11:51):
Right.

Speaker 2 (11:51):
Which is not grammatically incorrect, but hey, it rhymes. Liter alliteration tends to, uh,

Speaker 1 (11:57):
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:57):
For some reason you file monkey brains when you have, um, alliteration actually sticks better. We think's not true.

Speaker 1 (12:02):
That's right. That's right. So

Speaker 2 (12:03):
Yeah. So do different is that yeah, we can, we can talk about things, we can have all these ideas, but when you actually break away from the past, it's difficult. And it's also very hard for an individual who is quite innovative to stick their neck out and say to, to their boss, to their colleagues, to whoever, and say, actually, I wanna do this in a different way.

Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yeah. Well, we're creatures of habit. Right. So that, that can be challenging to kind of break out of the norm.

Speaker 2 (12:27):
Well, it's more that you, you have a high risk,

Speaker 1 (12:31):
Right.

Speaker 2 (12:32):
If something goes wrong, what's the consequence? Yes. You might lose your job.

Speaker 1 (12:35):
Yes,

Speaker 2 (12:35):
It's true.

Speaker 1 (12:36):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
You know, it, it's high stakes.

Speaker 3 (12:38):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (12:38):
What's the reward company does better. Okay, great. But are you being financially rewarded? Are you being incentivized? Or are you fighting an up your battle? So it also, again, comes down to this company structure of, well, are you actually rewarding innovation and doing different and doing different is the only way to set yourself up to be more relevant for tomorrow's context than yesterday's context.

Speaker 1 (13:03):
So you mentioned just now the kind of challenge of looking into the future, you know, without her , without the aid of narcotics. Uh, that's a challenge. Without giving away your kind of trade secrets, like, uh, as, as you are thinking about the future, how do you approach that challenge of kind of future gazing? What, what's your source material? What's your methodology? Tell me more about, about that.

Speaker 2 (13:23):
I think the methodology is both about education and immersion.

Speaker 3 (13:28):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (13:29):
So education comes through, you know, reading, listening to speaking to people that are working on things that are quite advanced because, you know, a lot of people in tech and healthcare, um, in different industries. People with innovation titles or, you know, so and so forth. I'm, I'm quite lucky because I am at a lot of different conferences
(13:48):
And I usually kind of pull aside the speakers and say, Hey, like tell me what are you seeing? What are you working on? What does that mean? Or traveling around the world similarly, how do you do things different? You're actually putting myself into that space to, to educate myself about what's coming up so that I can pass that information on. And then the second part is also practicing what I preach, which is doing different. And I spend a lot of my time actually testing out different technology tools to understand how I can use them in my business and in clients' businesses. So rather than saying, Hey, AI is this great thing, oh, we can have, you know, AI agents and agent ai. I'm like, well, I can get somebody to set that up for me, or I can try to build that myself.

Speaker 3 (14:31):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (14:32):
So at the moment I'm going through this exercise where I'm trying out all of these different types of ais. I'm trying out all of these different, um, you know, marketing packages, et cetera, that had this, you know, ai, super growth promise, et cetera, to understand how does that fit into my workflow? How does this save me time? What are the realities of actually implementing it? And what are the roadblocks? And it's the same as like, you know, when we're at school, we do that, we learn something new and that kind of establishes our knowledge base and how we operate. Mm. But for some reason, once we get out of, you know, maybe the first three to five years of our career, we stop learning, we stop trying, but it all changes around us. Right. But then we don't keep pace. But lemme tell you something, it's fun. It's really fun. I don't know, like to what extent are you experimenting with like, little AI agents and bots and all that kind of a thing?

Speaker 1 (15:19):
Yeah. Well, I mean, working in marketing as I do, you know, it's a huge area for us. It's very high potential in AI tools and technology. So yeah, we're, we're experimenting with generative ai with AI applications to data. And as you say, the pace of change. If you're not moving with the times, then you get left behind very quickly. So I'd love to talk a little bit more about ai. Of course. It's a very hot topic at the moment. And we were discussing AI in the context of business generally. I wonder if we can bring that back to real estate commercial properties or the workplace construction. What are some of the applications of AI that you are seeing in the industry that really excite you, that you think have a huge potential application in the future?

Speaker 2 (16:02):
I mean, AI is touching every job, every node, every thing. I'm gonna skip over some of the obvious stuff. Sure. 'cause you can use it for every single node, um, of what we do for efficiency finding. Yeah. We, we know that. Yeah. And, you know, something like AI is obviously great at doing, you know, tasks that are very repetitive and dull.

Speaker 3 (16:24):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
And we can kind of connect them up and streamline things. And I think a lot of us use it more like that first level is, oh, we can do some copywriting for me, write my emails. And it becomes this kind of search engine of, oh, I can actually get enriched information and it can review a contract. And great. You know, in the third kind of level is how do you start using AI agents and connecting things up to start having more of an automated workflow?

Speaker 3 (16:48):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (16:49):
That's the kind of things that's, um, coming through. So I'm kind of at that third level.

Speaker 3 (16:52):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (16:53):
The fourth level is where we all want to go, which is really this, you know, grandiose opportunity of everything, of the what's possible.

Speaker 3 (17:01):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (17:01):
And if I can throw in some definitions, kind of where we are at the moment is called weak ai, which is where we get AI to do the types of tasks that we people can do, but it just does it

Speaker 1 (17:11):
Quicker. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:12):
Um, 'cause we taught it how to do our jobs. Like great, let's outsource that to AI and you know, go hang out on the golf course. Great . Right. But yeah. So, but where we wanna go is called strong ai. Mm. So strong AI is where AI can do the stuff that we can't do. 'cause it's this huge supercomputer, you know, all knowledge, all knowing, et cetera. So strong AI is where we start to get into the predictive stuff rather than repeating stuff. It's the predictive stuff. So this is where you start bringing in information such as weather patterns, where you start bringing in things like, you know, a geopolitical environment that's at the moment is happening with a lot of uncertainty. Mm. So you can actually start supplemented also with your own data about your buildings, your portfolio, your finances and the industry, et cetera. All these here's of third party data, building data, et cetera. So you start getting this like, if a human brain can take so much AI is infinite. And that's where it becoming powerful because that's when you get that real predictive power of what might the future look like. So more than the LSD version of what the human brain is capable of. Right. That's not data led. Right. That's very imagined. Right. Right.
(18:20):
You're actually getting this data led side or saying, what does the future look like based on this super data science computer that can actually look at all these different factors coming together and making predictions. Mm. So that's, that's a far future, but it's very difficult for our industry 'cause we don't actually have the data about what we're doing.

Speaker 1 (18:36):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (18:37):
To be able to feed into it and have that relevance.

Speaker 1 (18:39):
So there's actually a kind of underlying, there's some underlying work that needs to be done by the sounds of it, to capture more data, um, from different sources to, uh, unlock the full potential of these tools.

Speaker 2 (18:52):
Well, a combination is not just about data capture, it's about useful data and how you can bring it together.

Speaker 1 (18:59):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (18:59):
And, and I'll give you one example because this one used to irk me, so I may as well

Speaker 1 (19:04):
Use you . Yes. Great. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:05):
So what used to irk me is that at one of the shopping center projects I worked on, we had sensors across our shopping center.

Speaker 3 (19:13):
Right.

Speaker 2 (19:13):
And I always ask a lot of questions, especially when it comes to data. 'cause I wanna kind of drill down into, well, what does it mean? What does it mean? What does it mean? Let's get away from the generic. And what I ultimately found is that on a full shopping center floor plate, we'd have maybe two sensors that describe the entire floor plate. I'm like, but this place is huge. Mm. You're telling me like, it takes me like 15 minutes to walk from end to end, and we only have two sensors. Like, this data is garbage.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:40):
You know, and this was like counting people. And I'm like, but it's, it's garbage. It doesn't actually give us any information.

Speaker 1 (19:45):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (19:45):
You know, so, or we'd have a situation where the internet kept dropping out. Mm. Which meant that we lost a lot of our data around people counting.

Speaker 3 (19:54):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (19:54):
So we only had about a 2% sample size that we, we were basing all of our company decisions on. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, but it's garbage.

Speaker 3 (20:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (20:03):
You know, so that's the problem. We can collect data, but we've gotta figure out is it useful? Is it the right kind of data? Is it in the right format?

Speaker 3 (20:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (20:11):
And unfortunately, what that often involves is a capital investment in getting senses to do it right. And to do it right. Which our industry, because of the way that decisions are made, often that gets cut out saying, well, we've already got two senses. Like, that's good enough. They'll make due when it's a recipient, or the data goes well, we may as well have no senses. This is just Yeah. So

Speaker 1 (20:33):
Nowhere near enough.

Speaker 2 (20:34):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (20:35):
So, so it's about increasing the volume, the breadth of data, and the quality. Those three things hand in hand. At that point, you start to have something usable with transformative potential.

Speaker 2 (20:51):
Yeah. It's about the usefulness. And I'd say almost, um, start with an end in mind.

Speaker 1 (20:55):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (20:56):
And understand what are you trying to achieve? What data do you need? And then actually make sure that you're collecting it in the right way.

Speaker 1 (21:02):
Nikki, this week we've met with, um, a variety of guests, people from around the industry. We've met with architects, with workplace strategists, we've met with developers, property owners, everyone has different ideas of what the future holds for the workplace. I'd love to hear from you about your personal vision of how you think the modern workplace is evolving and also the kind of driving forces behind that change.

Speaker 2 (21:34):
Yeah. That's a great lineup that you had. And I'm lo I'm looking forward to, um, listening in on all of those. I heard he had full Kirshner, who's a good friend of mine. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So he, he also lives locally, so

Speaker 1 (21:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:44):
Um, we tend to see direct eye to eye on things, so it'll be interesting.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (21:49):
Um, having us in different rooms, seeing that we actually get, we'll see, we're probably gonna get the exact same answer. I'll be interested to see that. So, future workplace, I have a lot of opinions, but in thinking about what I'd share with you today

Speaker 3 (21:59):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (22:00):
I thought I'd break it down. This is gonna go into a little bit of a monologue. Are you, are you okay with

Speaker 1 (22:04):
That? I'm, I'm down. I'm just gonna listen. You gonna listen and absorb it? Yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:07):
Sit, sit back, have your margarita et . That's right. So look, there's a very famous architect called Miss Van Ro. Do you remember Miss Van Ro? Are you

Speaker 1 (22:15):
Familiar with him? Him, I dunno. Miss Van Ro Now tell me about,

Speaker 2 (22:17):
He's he's a modernist architect.

Speaker 1 (22:19):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (22:19):
And he has the famous phrase, form follows function.

Speaker 1 (22:22):
Right.

Speaker 2 (22:22):
Probably heard that one.

Speaker 1 (22:23):
Yes, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (22:24):
So what that basically means is that when you create something physical, whether it's clothing or a space or a bicycle or car, you have to think about, well, what's the function that it has to hold? So for example, if you are going to the gym, what are you gonna wear?

Speaker 1 (22:39):
I will wear a t-shirt and shorts.

Speaker 2 (22:41):
Yeah. You're not going to wear your interview clothes.

Speaker 1 (22:43):
Certainly not. No.

Speaker 2 (22:44):
Yeah. It's

Speaker 1 (22:45):
Highly impractical

Speaker 2 (22:46):
. And if I'm going to the gym, am I gonna be wearing the same size clothes as you? Or am I going to wear the same?

Speaker 1 (22:51):
You probably wear something that fits you rather than something that fits me. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:55):
Well that's it. Exactly. And I'll also be thinking about, well, what's the kind of workout I'm gonna do?

Speaker 1 (23:00):
Right.

Speaker 2 (23:00):
If I'm doing a hot yoga, I'll probably wear the cute little shorts and you know, something that's very breathable. If I'm doing a cycle class, I wear different shoes.

Speaker 3 (23:08):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (23:09):
So that's the functions, the form changes.

Speaker 3 (23:11):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (23:12):
So when we think about the future of offers, we have to look at the fall. What is the work that's going to happen and how should it take place? So how can we actually design the optimal environment for the way that we're going to work? So I believe the future of work is kind of taking a few steps back and this is what our work with my clients on to go not just what is the space that we should design, but how are we going to work.

Speaker 3 (23:38):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (23:38):
And then we can design that optimal environment and that environment's going to be right for the individual and their needs. And that, by the way, is why a lot of people work from home because they get to, in Desi they get to design the environment that they want for themselves at home.

Speaker 3 (23:51):
Right.

Speaker 2 (23:52):
Whether there's music or dirty plates from the kitchen . Right. You know, or kids' photos or you know, five monitors, no monitors, or, you know, they lock the door. Mm. You get to have that autonomy at home. You don't get that in the office. The office, um, at present is like a one size fits all type thing.

Speaker 1 (24:09):
Right.

Speaker 2 (24:09):
Which, which was fine once upon a time when we're all doing the same work in the same kind of way. Now we all work in different ways.
(24:14):
Mm. So I think the big change really is understanding, you know, what is the future of work? How do we wanna work? And then how do we design the optimal environment? And what I will add to that, and that's why I was quite deliberate in wearing my meta glasses today, is that as we get different types of technologies, it's also going to influence the way that we work. So these are the kind of old dumb version, the new versions coming out, which will have, you know, ar that can actually, um, see things on the screen instead of having a computer screen. Then the question then becomes, again, a thought exercise of what happens when you don't need to have a desk with a computer on it. Right. When I can just walk around and I can, I can already take phone calls and videos and listen to music and connect into AI and ask questions. I can already do that on my glasses. So what happens when I add a screen and I can just be walking around anywhere, I don't need a desk. Like what does that work environment look like there? What is a conversation between a manager and somebody on their team? What does that look like when they don't need a screen? Or when you're collaborating and you don't have to be behind devices that can actually be like bloop, bloop,
(25:18):
Bloop. Right.

Speaker 1 (25:19):
It seems like there's a, a, a trend towards much more flexibility and kind of multi, multi-functionality, multi-purpose ness in space, whereas the office of the past was much more structured and kind of binary. How do you see that?

Speaker 2 (25:37):
Yeah, I'd say so. Um, and I'm gonna be a little bit controversial slash rude in a sense to some of the current workplace design solutions that I've been coming out is that a lot of like post pandemic, a lot of the modern workplace solutions that I've seen have been surrounded, you know, around collaboration spaces. Right. Which, which sound wonderful,

Speaker 1 (25:57):
Right.

Speaker 2 (25:58):
In theory, however, it's open plan and it doesn't actually let the individual control their environment.

Speaker 3 (26:04):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (26:04):
So ultimately what we see is that if there are little private offices or phone booths, et cetera, individuals flock to those Yes. Because they get to have that control of the environment. Right. So if I can implore to anybody listening, , it's create more opportunities for individuals to have ownership over their own environment, you know, with private spaces that they can take ownership on. Mm-hmm. You know, if they're going there, if they're always booked out, there's a reason for it. And then you've gotta say, okay, if that's what people want, let's, let's create the environment that people help what they want.

Speaker 1 (26:36):
And like you say, it's about first understanding the, the, the types of work that people need to do and, and when and in what situation. And kind of working from that point backwards rather than creating a space and hoping that it will be used in the way that you intended.

Speaker 2 (26:51):
Yeah. And if you're getting an environment where you're finding, well, everyone's coming into the office and they're all getting into these phone booths and they're just sitting on Zoom calls and not talking to each other, then you've got to take that step back.

Speaker 1 (27:02):
Defeats the purpose,

Speaker 2 (27:03):
Isn't it? Yeah. That's it. And you've probably gotta go, well, why are people just sitting in these phone booths and sitting on calls all day? Maybe we should have fewer meetings or Right. Maybe we should have more opportunities for collaboration or actually create a time and space that they do get to do that focused work. Because that's the symptom of the problem. Mm-hmm. That's a reaction to the type of work people, people are just trying to get their work done. You know, they're not trying to like avoid colleagues, they just wanna get their work done. That's right. Especially and go home. That's right. To enjoy their hobbies.

Speaker 3 (27:30):
Yes. So

Speaker 2 (27:31):
I think, and I, it's, I'm a, I'm a broken record, but it does always come back to, you know, what is the work that's happening? You know, take a look at that, see how you can get rid of the stuff that's maybe more solitary so that you do have more time for collaboration so that these beautiful collaboration spaces can be used more.

Speaker 1 (27:46):
You started out in architecture, correct? Yeah. So as somebody who started out in architecture and the, the, the process of designing the building itself, do you, do you see that that discipline has changed over the years to accommodate more of these kinds of factors that we're talking about now? This is kind of, it, it strikes me that there's been a big shift in the kind of understanding and engineering of the humans within this space, rather than just the, the bricks.

Speaker 2 (28:11):
Yeah. Well, I mean there's the discipline of workplace design.

Speaker 1 (28:14):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (28:14):
Um, which is, you know, people that really live and breathe the stuff and are fantastic at it. The challenge is that often even when they're presenting a new idea, it's met with an older mindset. So there's gotta be a little bit of a conversation and, and hopefully in time will get more case studies of successful offices that do things in a different way to be able to bring more solace and comfort to the owners and developers that are creating the spaces to say, you know, what to do different is actually better for us. But I don't envy them. I just support them. I support the innovative

Speaker 1 (28:50):
Sharing them on.

Speaker 2 (28:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:51):
So if we zoom out and we, we think about the office as a component of a modern city and office is going through a lot of change at the moment. You know, the working practices are going through a lot of change, but cities are going through a lot of change as well. So how do you see, uh, the modern or the future office within the context of the future city?

Speaker 2 (29:13):
I love that question because you're actually weaving office into the context of the city. And the picture I get is really for it to be open

Speaker 3 (29:22):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (29:22):
In a bit of a four court situation. And I mean, we're seeing in a ridiculously nice office today, I've gotta say this is

Speaker 1 (29:30):
Very nice.

Speaker 2 (29:30):
It's ridiculously great.

Speaker 1 (29:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:32):
But when we talk about the city, it's like, well, the city's out there, the city's beyond the windows.

Speaker 3 (29:37):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (29:37):
And maybe I'm a little bit biased because I'm Australian and we like to spend a lot of our time outside. Right. And with the doors open and the windows open. But I would love to see a context where there is a greater spillover between the indoors and the outdoors. You know, that we can actually have more fresh air coming in, that we are act actually interacting with the location more.

Speaker 3 (29:56):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (29:57):
As you are going out for lunch, that you're meeting people in the streets, et cetera. That kind of openness again, I think we lost that for the pandemic.

Speaker 3 (30:03):
Yes. And

Speaker 2 (30:04):
Now we're all very isolated at home, but we can have more offices like spreading out to actually enjoying the streets and going out and whatever. I think then that all that'll be wonderful.

Speaker 1 (30:13):
A term that I heard when I was talking to Phil Kirschner was permeability. Yeah. It's kind of a exchange of energy people, uh, between the world out there and uh, the world in here. So I think that's kind of similar to what you're describing.

Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yeah. There's, there's some great essays about thresholds.

Speaker 1 (30:33):
Right.

Speaker 2 (30:34):
Um, you know, one of them being by Louis Sullivan, this is going like, uh, way back and you know, just kind of talks about what happens when you transition between one threshold or another, you know, inside or outside, you know? Mm-hmm. And who are you, what is your identity? Mm-hmm. It's like in the office you might be buttoned up, but as soon as you step outside it's like, ah, I can relax.

Speaker 1 (30:53):
Right.

Speaker 2 (30:54):
So when you can actually break down these thresholds and you know, bring the outside in, you're, you're outside of the box, you get to be more creative. So, see, I like Phil. I think we'll agree on that one.

Speaker 1 (31:03):
. That's good. So you've spoken, uh, about, uh, placemaking and placemaking is a coming, a kind of ubiquitous phrase. Um, uh, nowadays, what do you think is the role of the office in, uh, cultivating community? A sense of belonging? And particularly how do you see that when there's also a trend towards hybrid work, which ke keeps people away from the office.

Speaker 2 (31:29):
We put a thing about, well, why are people coming to the office anyway?

Speaker 3 (31:33):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (31:34):
And it used to be you go to the office because that's where you get work done and that's where you have meetings, et cetera. And we know now there's an alternative. You can work from home and you can have zoom meetings. Okay. So that purpose is gone. So I'm gonna use a little bit of an analogy because I like analogies and I think sometimes we get stuck a little bit in our old way of thinking because we're, we know the solution. So when we kinda shift into a different mode, sometimes it helps. Let's go back to the gym. Mm-hmm. Do you, do you go to the gym by the way?

Speaker 1 (32:02):
I do. Not enough Nikki, but I do go

Speaker 2 (32:05):
. Alright. Alright. I, I'll I'll leave you outta this one. Alright. So I like going to the gym. Yeah. And every Saturday morning I go to Equinox and I do spin class with D guns. Right. D guns is amazing. I hate working out. I hate cardio, I hate things sweaty. But I go there every single Saturday without fail. I get off my lazy ass. I put on my workout clothes, I go there, I sweat it up and I'm red-faced for like another three hours that day, . But I do it. So I'm like, okay. He brings me there every day. What's gonna bring people to an office? Right. So what are the things that bring me to his class? That sense of community mm-hmm . Everyone in the room, we are there towards a common purpose. We see the same faces, we're collegial, but more than anything, it's about that captain at the front of the class D guns.

Speaker 3 (32:54):
He's

Speaker 2 (32:54):
The ultimate motivator. He puts in a 500% effort every time I show up. 'cause he shows up.

Speaker 1 (33:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:02):
And he motivates.

Speaker 1 (33:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:03):
No, let's bring it back to an office environment. When you come in and you see your manager, are they maybe not your manager, a hypothetical manager? Are they this like ultimate motivator? Like, yeah, you know, you're gonna give your 500%, you're gonna set it up, blah, blah, blah. Most people don't actually have that.
(33:19):
Mm. A lot of the time you come in, you say, Hey manager, hey guys. Okay. Alright. I'm gonna sit down. So I think part of it is yes, it's this physical environment. We can create this like beautiful place that we want to go to, that we get to go to now. There's wonderful environment, but I think a lot of it is really about leadership, management, et cetera. Stepping up. Mm. Being visible, showing up, talking to people, inviting them in. I know, um, some CEOs what they would do is on a Friday afternoon, they'd come in and they would just hang out in the kitchen.

Speaker 3 (33:49):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (33:49):
And anyone that came into the kitchen, they'd like call the moments. They're like, Hey, what are you up to? Like, let's chat. So everyone started coming in on a Friday. 'cause like, oh, I get to like chat with the boss. Mm. You know? So I think it's, it's, it's also up to leadership. Like when you are in the office, are you present? Mm. What are you actually giving? What energy are you fueling to this environment? Or is it kind of like the old fashioned, kinda like gray doom and gloom? I think, again, gotta look at the whole organization, not just the space. The space supports it.

Speaker 1 (34:15):
Right. There's huge interconnectivity between company culture and the, the, uh, the placemaking considerations. You can't have one without the other. Like you say, you can't put a beautiful building or incredible space together and just assume that it will work without the underlying culture also working to support it.

Speaker 2 (34:36):
Yeah. And people have an option. People will choose what they enjoy the most.

Speaker 3 (34:40):
Mm. And

Speaker 2 (34:41):
In a lot of instances, going into the office is a lot better than working from home because you have vast internet. It's a beautiful environment. There's snacks, there's lunch. Yeah. No, these, these are great motivators. Yeah. And, and they absolutely work. Yeah. So I think you can kind of like ping at every little thing and go, okay, how can we keep making it, you know, preferable for people to come in, you know, profitable for the company to actually justify having the space and that they're getting an enhanced output. Whether it's, um, you know, higher retention, better talent, whatever. There's a lot of metrics that go into it, but you've gotta aim high.

Speaker 1 (35:16):
And how, how easy do you think it is to connect those metrics to the, to the inputs that, uh, go into company culture, workplace strategy, technology? How do you stitch all that together and get a kind of meaningful connection between input and output?

Speaker 2 (35:32):
That's a tough one. I mean, you're getting both into the data side of the, the work output itself and also the humanistic side.

Speaker 1 (35:39):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (35:39):
And I was re-listening today to Atomic Habits by James Clear.

Speaker 1 (35:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:45):
And he was actually talking about this exact thing. Right. And he was talking about data. Yes. And he used this analogy of a restaurant. He said, okay, you can look at a restaurant and say, okay, we're the data we're going to use is going to be, um, how many people came to the restaurant and how much profit did we make?

Speaker 3 (36:00):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (36:00):
It's like, okay, but there's other data that can tell you a different story.

Speaker 3 (36:04):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (36:04):
Goes, well, did people like the meal? Maybe we should look at, well, did people finish what's on their plate?

Speaker 1 (36:10):
Right.

Speaker 2 (36:11):
To tell you if it's good, are people coming back, et cetera. Mm. So you can start using different metrics. You can look at obvious ones, like how many emails did people respond to? Or did they meet their deadlines? Did they meet their KPIs? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. There's external factors.

Speaker 3 (36:26):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (36:26):
But you can also look at what is the tone of people's emails?

Speaker 3 (36:30):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
You know, there's software that can do that.

Speaker 3 (36:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:32):
Um, you can look at, you know, what is the, um, the interactions between different people. There's, um, you know, they sense the technology. They've run experiments, putting it on people to see how much time they actually were physic in physical proximity and talking to each other. You know, are you actually increasing that? You can measure these things.

Speaker 3 (36:50):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (36:50):
Um, but of course there's environmental things and weather conditions, et cetera, that you have to take into account. But I think it's not just about the obvious metrics, but sometimes there's more humanistic metrics that you can start to look at. Um, that can give you some answers or you can ask people

Speaker 1 (37:06):
Yes, of course. You just talk to your people and find out how they're feeling. Tell me about, you mentioned, uh, about the amount of travel that you do. I wonder if you, if you think of other cities that are leading the way in terms of adopting kind of future proof strategies or future looking strategies, are there places you visit where you think this is really embracing the future and kind of building change for the future?

Speaker 2 (37:29):
Yeah. Saudi Arabia, they have the Vision 2030 plan. And what this is, is basically the whole reorganization of their society to be future ready.

Speaker 3 (37:39):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (37:39):
And hugely ambitious. One of the things that they've done within it, and that I referenced quite a bit, is because they're objectives are so grand and audacious

Speaker 3 (37:48):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (37:49):
When it comes to something like the sustainability goals, for example. They're not just looking at the technology of today. They're also looking at the technology of tomorrow to solve for that.

Speaker 3 (37:58):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (37:58):
So they're making huge investments in ai, digital infrastructure, innovation, emerging technologies, because they know that where they want to go and they've established where they want to go, they have this vision 20, 30 and beyond.

Speaker 3 (38:12):
Mm-hmm .

Speaker 2 (38:13):
They know that they, to get to that goal, they need technologies that don't necessarily exist yet. So they're actually investing in knowing the aim and then finding the pathway to it. So I think that's pretty inspiring.

Speaker 1 (38:24):
I wanna ask you, as somebody who concerns themselves with the future, whether you, you're fundamentally optimistic about what the future holds for, for cities. There are considerations out there, the environment, for example, where there are major kind of causes for concern and challenges that need to be met. How do you see the overall balance and what's your personal attitude to it?

Speaker 2 (38:46):
That's a big question. I'm optimistic in general. Uh, I mean, at this moment there's a huge amount of global tumults. Mm-hmm. And even in the city of New York, there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of clashing of individuals and minds and tension. Mm.

Speaker 3 (39:02):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (39:02):
Um, for me as a futurist, I like to think ahead and look ahead and at long-term trends. The reality is that as human beings, we are invested in making a better society. And the pathway there tends to be quite tricky. Mm. Throughout history, we've gone through different, you know, different changes. We've gone through volcanoes and, you know, cities on fire and war and societal change, leadership change. We, we've been through everything before. Mm. And we tend to, as each generation comes through, things tend to get better.

Speaker 3 (39:34):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (39:35):
So when it comes to cities that Yeah. I do believe that cities generally have a future. Not all cities are the same, so Right. I'll take a step back and say that, but generally speaking that yeah, we do have challenges. We do have challenges like, you know, affordability or climate change or aging infrastructure. And different cities have different challenges, but I think ultimately the people within them are all working towards a common goal. And it really takes, um, vision from leaders to say, let's not just look at what's popular today, but let's actually do the hard work towards the future that we wanna have. And no, attached to that, what I will add is that at the moment in New York, congestion pricing is very

Speaker 3 (40:17):
Contentious. Yes. So, yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:19):
Now it comes in and it goes out. I'm biased because I don't have a car and I don't have kids. I'm not mobility impaired. Right. You know, when I had a car in Australia, I sold it 'cause I didn't use it. So I will say I'm biased in this regard.

Speaker 1 (40:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:29):
Um, so I'm in favor of it. Yeah. Because I would love to see, uh, fewer cars on our streets, less congestion and the enablement of better public transportation on our streets.

Speaker 3 (40:38):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (40:39):
Um, coupled with a better environment for pedestrians on the sidewalk

Speaker 1 (40:43):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (40:44):
Because of less congestion we can flow out in the streets, et cetera.

Speaker 1 (40:47):
Right.

Speaker 2 (40:48):
But my proof point attached to that, which I think you might be able to relate to, and I'd like to hear your perspective on it

Speaker 1 (40:53):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (40:54):
Is the city of London.

Speaker 1 (40:55):
Sure.

Speaker 2 (40:56):
And just how transformative bringing in congestion pricing was for London.

Speaker 3 (41:00):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (41:00):
And I've seen through, you know, through the, you know, past, uh, decade or two, how much it's transformed

Speaker 3 (41:06):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (41:06):
From being this, you know, dirty, congested Yes. Even the buildings were just gray with, you know, just gray with pollution.

Speaker 1 (41:14):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (41:15):
And now you go downtown and it's walkable. Yes. And it's wonderful. Yes. And there's more community and more things happening outdoors. Mm-hmm. And I want that to come to New York, but that change is hard. I mean, what's what's your perspective?

Speaker 1 (41:25):
Well, I think first of all, you'd have to be crazy to drive in London anyway, um, gi given how hard it is to drive there. But yes, I remember when the congestion charge came in in London and I was very in favor of it. I think that, that the upsides are significant, the impact on air quality pollution, obviously very significant, but also you are right, like traffic on the streets is taking up space where pedestrians could be instead. And, um, a common thread through many of the conversations that we've had in this series has been about the need to kind of focus on the people within the space and their experience. And I think that traffic diminishes that. So yeah, I'm pretty in favor of anything that will cut it back, uh, and make more space for people rather than vehicles.

Speaker 3 (42:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:09):
And certainly in London, I think it, I think it, it had that impact, um, when, when the congestion charge came in,

Speaker 2 (42:15):
When we are thinking about the future of our downtowns, especially those that have been adversely impacted by COVID or other things, that they're not thriving as they once had. There's, and this is very much an urban design principle, and there's this great phrase, which is the city is its streets.

Speaker 3 (42:33):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (42:33):
And that's where people interact, right? So if you can take the roads, the sidewalk, the frontage on a building, which is our industry's thing.

Speaker 3 (42:41):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (42:42):
If you can solve for that and make this beautiful, safe, vibrant environment, then the offices will fall up.

Speaker 1 (42:48):
Right.

Speaker 2 (42:48):
Because that's the space we spend outside in the city. Yeah. It's less so in the subway stations, less so in private spaces. That's what we need to solve for, just fix the streets. And we're having that a little bit with, uh, New York. We have a lot of construction sidewalk, what we call sidewalk sheds. Mm. Which are atrocious. It's whole battle, whatever. But that also destroys the quality of the streets. Right. So, you know, once you've less traffic, there's sidewalk shares, safer environment, more plastic, et cetera. Fix, fix the sidewalks, and then you'll have a vibrant city again.

Speaker 1 (43:19):
So Nikki, before we wrap things up, I've been asking every guest, uh, the same three quick fire questions to, to wrap things up. So I wanna ask you these questions. Um, first of all, what's your favorite city on the planet? New York. New York. It's been a popular answer. . Um,

Speaker 2 (43:36):
You get just second favorites

Speaker 1 (43:37):
And Well, and, and tell me why, what is it about New York that makes it your favorite city?

Speaker 2 (43:41):
Oh, it's, it's vibrant. You get access to the best of everything and everyone mm-hmm . And it pushes you to be better and bolder and amazing. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:50):
So we just talked a little bit about this, but my final question is what would you do to improve New York if you could

Speaker 2 (43:56):
Improve the streets?

Speaker 1 (43:57):
Yeah,

Speaker 2 (43:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:59):
Well, uh, on that note, uh, I wanna just say thank you very much, Nikki, for your time. And it's been a really interesting and insightful conversation, and particularly it's tied together many of the threads that we've explored in the rest of the series. So I do appreciate that and I look forward to seeing, uh, your predictions of the future come to fruition. Um, so thank you very much for your time.

Speaker 2 (44:20):
Great. Thank you for having me. It's been an absolute delight.

Speaker 1 (44:23):
Thank you all for joining us for this series of In The Loop, a podcast series from LoopNet, exploring the stories, ideas, and people of commercial real estate. And thank you again to our guest, Nikki Greenberg. Uh, Nikki, thanks again for joining us and I do appreciate all your time and insights. Thank you. So thank you. We don't want you to miss an episode, so don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel or follow in the loop on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you listen to your podcasts. And while you are there, leave us a review and a rating. And don't forget to recommend the show to a fellow commercial real estate geek.